LIKE GOLD DOWN A SEWER PART FIVE!

ANDY FREEBURN AND ETHAN SMITH GOOFING AROUND, I THINK THIS IS SOMETIME TOWARDS THE END OF THE EIGHTIES, AND I THINK THAT CHRIS SCHNIEDER PROBABLY TOOK THIS. CHRIS TOOK A LOT OF REALLY GREAT PICTURES DOCUMENTING EVERYTHING.


SO THIS IS PROBABLY THE LAST INSTALLMENT BUT THERE'S STILL A FEW THINGS LEFT ON MY COMPUTER. NOTE HOW ALL OF THIS MORE OR LESS ENDS BEFORE 1990. AFTER THAT OF COURSE, THE CHAPEL HILL THING STARTED UP. BUT THAT IS A STORY THAT SOMEONE ELSE SHOULD TELL.


SUPPORTING THE SCENE

SAM HICKS: Every city has it's truly "underground" scene that only the most hardcore of music lovers keeps track of, and once in a while some city will have a lively but short-lived scene explosion like the 1989 "Chapel Hill" thing or the more recent "Americana" movement, but somehow it just doesn't seem the same. In fact, I don't think I'm slighting these newer scenes in anyway by saying; it's not the same. The acceptance of "Alternative" music onto the airwaves seems to have taken the heart and soul out of what used to inspire us. Once a "culture" like this is started, it only takes a little sweat & blood from some new group of kids to get it growing again, but putting a lot of effort into your local scene doesn't make sense anymore because as fast as you invent a new sound, your local radio station and MTV are playing a band (who got signed last week) that sound too much like it for anyone to come out to your shows. But I really shouldn't get started on this, as it's an entirely different topic worthy of it's own article.

Obviously, the way people found out about shows, bands, and fanzines was no different then anywhere else in the country. People weren’t into it thinking that they were going to make tons of money. There was never any money as far as I could see, and what little there could be was almost always put back into other projects. A good example of this was certainly Reed Mullin. Reed worked for his parents, and Reed would take a lot of his money and do a whole lot of different things with it. He would put on tons of shows, help finance other people’s magazines, bring younger bands (directly inspired by C.O.C.) into studios and help them record and finance their demos, and in some cases he even paid to have their records released. Reed helped put out the Honor Role and Subculture records.

BOB SCHICK: Reed got involved with Honor Role because he was a big supporter of ours & really felt we needed to record the songs we were playing at the time. Being completely awful with money, we needed his help. He was kind enough to give us the money to record the album & then pressed it. I sold it to the distributors & he shipped the records out from Raleigh. It worked out well. Reed loaned us money, helped us get shows, and basically helped us get our act together.

He even went as far as driving to North Raleigh and picking up kids who weren’t of the age to drive and bring them downtown to shows that he organized. I can’t imagine anyone doing that now. Reed certainly deserves props for all of that, and for quite awhile it would have been hard to imagine what Raleigh would have been like if Reed hadn’t put so much of his time and energy into making these things happen. Of course he wasn’t the only one. Ricky Hicks was a good guy and a did a whole lot to help other people. Simon Bob Sinister promoted lots of shows. Wayne Taylor’s energy certainly helped give birth to the box set that was released in early ’88. If he wasn’t there, I am sure that it probably wouldn’t have happened. All of us who made fanzines always did so knowing full well that there would never be any real payback involved. You put up your money and kissed it goodbye, all for the benefit of getting it (whatever it was) out. If recording in an actual studio seemed like an outrageous goal at the time, then putting out a record seemed to be a dream. Yet following the examples of others, lots of people somehow made it happen. There weren’t too many careerist goals for most people at the time. It was all about documenting the moment. By ’85 there certainly was a lot of established networking going on, and most bands, with the exception of C.O.C. and a few others, never were able to get to a level where they could tour the country, something C.O.C. did a few times by “85. The Ugly Americans did one big tour of the country. Subculture did one, too. Days Of..maybe played two or three out of town shows. I remember during my time in Wwax, we played out of state maybe twice, once in South Carolina and once in Richmond, Va. Opening up for Honor Role. The idea of trying to really “make it” never entered anyone’s mind, and even so, that goal seemed beside the point, as we (and several others) weren’t serious about it on that type of level. To be blunt, for the most part, that type of thing did not exist at all. And when it was brought up, most people just made fun of it. It’s funny how things have changed in that regard. C.O.C. is probably one of the only bands that I personally knew who ended up doing that. And even then there were plenty of good as well as bad points to such a decision.

JON WURSTER: I think it was just a more innocent time.  Bands back then hoped to put a record out (usually themselves) and maybe play their way across the country. Money rarely figured into the equation.  Now everybody wants to get a record deal and sell a bunch of shirts. I think this is something that goes on everywhere.  Bands are much more into self-promotion now -to the point of annoying the hell out of people who might even like them.

BILL DALY: I really believe Raleigh never did reach its full potential. I still think that there were obstacles that diverted that. For one, there was never good radio support for punk/hardcore in Raleigh. If there were a lot more people would have been exposed to other kinds of music. Moreover, since I have been here, I have never seen much loyalty or interest in any genre of music except radio rock and country. This is how I have observed it for the last 17 years as a record shop worker/ owner and as a spectator. Overall, I would have to say Raleigh musical tastes were pedestrian and conservative in the 1980's and it still is today in 2002. That is basically why I am pulling my store out of here. 

Looking back throughout the history of what one could call a music scene here in this town, a interesting point is that Raleigh (college town aside) has always seemed to have this working class vibe to it, and along with that came a favoring of more traditional sounds that were rooted in hard rock and heavy metal. This cannot be denied. It was no accident that C.O.C. initially flourished here with their almagation of hardcore meets heavy metal sound, and a lot of the bands that came out after the wake of C.O.C. were of equally traditional sounds. But there have been plenty of other bands that deviated from the “typical” Raleigh sound. The Bad Checks played a more Gun Clubish style of rock. Light In August favored more English post punk stylings. A lot of the “box set” bands had very little to do with the sound. The local radio support has always been a back and forth type of thing, but there was always a LOT of support for these bands, tons of parties, shows & what have you. There were a lot of enthusiastic types making things happen. There has been-and will always be-talented & inspired visionaries running around here. A select few are well known outside of the Triangle area. Most however, take up space on assorted demo cassettes in my music collection, and that is where they will probably always be.


It is kind of amazing that a big town with as much history as Raleigh has never really achieved its obvious potential, & that it took the rumblings of nearby Chapel Hill in the very early nineties to get the rest of the world to pay attention to North Carolina as a whole. Keep in mind that until that happened there was for the most part not a whole lot going on in Chapel Hill, and a lot of times you had to make that thirty minute drive to Raleigh.


RICHARD BUTNER: The question assumes that Raleigh-as-city has some mindset and some goals and I don't think it has much of either.  A lot of it was just circumstances.  Chapel Hill is a college town and only a college town, and is a lot more liberal.  Raleigh has NC State, but it's also a plain ol' town too.  Most of the rivalry felt like it was all in fun--all of that Werewolf versus Toasterheads thing.  The people who really seemed cranky about city rivalries were the hardcore guys in Charlotte, who probably still think of all of us as a bunch of artfags.

SEAN LIVINGSTONE: Raleigh not living up to its fullest potential is total crap. There was never a lack of support. There were lulls with clubs and what not, but the local bands would always go out of their way to play parties, rent a clubhouse, etc. This made music even more accessible to the kids who couldn’t get into clubs and at the same time drew more interest from others. I have always thought that Raleigh was very blue collar about music. As for substantial radio play, look at the Chapel Hill scene. With a few exceptions, all that came from their scene was “the next Seattle” and mediocrity.

RICHARD BUTNER: Raleigh had more truly disaffected youth--kids who were outcasts in high school, who pumped gas to make money--than Chapel Hill.  Chapel Hill had the children of hippies, all being egged on to be creative.  In Raleigh things seemed more authentic, for lack of a better word.  OK, maybe except for that year when those guys from North Wilkesboro moved here and decided that they were mods.  Chapel Hill was always a dress-up kind of town. A Let's Pretend kind of thing, where you'd see guys trying to remake themselves as 50s rockabilly or 40s swing or 60s surf.  In Raleigh we had, what else?, Errol as a Britpunk.  But even he seemed more authentic, even if he did have a triple mohawk.

BRIAN GENTRY: I think the best band to come out of the whole era was the Flat Duo Jets, actually. They did this rockabilly stuff that was amazing-just two people, and very raw. They greatly prefigured all of the current rockabilly nonsense by about fifteen years and were amazing to see live. And I used to have the most fun at Bad Checks shows for some reason, I think because everyone I knew was there and it was completely about fun, no posturing, no attitudes, etc. I also thought that COC was great as a three piece. I had really never heard anything that heavy before. They really had momentum; it just hit you really hard. I know I sound like a music critic here but it is the best way I can think of to describe them however it sounds.

STEVE AKIN: I thought Subculture was pretty good and Ugly Americans had a couple of good shows. Stillborn Christians were really good but they broke up after I had only seen them two or three times. I love No Labels but I only saw them 3 times. I thought the rest were pretty bad. Bloodbath sucked, so did UNICEF, so did Resist. I can't even think of any others. So many were just generic and they broke up after two or three shows.

RICHARD BUTNER: So much of this has to do with random chance, circumstances, and hype. In the early 90s, yeah, it was "Chapel Hill is the next Seattle."  But look at any of those articles and you'll see Raleigh bands or Durham bands or Chatham County bands mentioned too.  It was just shorthand, the same way that Yankees call this region "Raleigh/Durham" as if there was one big
city here with that name.

I don’t know about now, but there was quite a bit of political minded activity & activist stuff going on as well. Never really my cup of tea, and easy to dismiss for some people, but there was a lot of people doing things of a political & subversive nature.

AN EDITORIAL WRITTEN BY ART DECO (Art Deco is a pen name for Tom Mekus. This is from ’87.)

I’ve eaten, I’m full and it’s sorta late. Wander over through the old neighborhood after dark and wonder if the people who lived in these homes turned businesses would have cared if money changed hands in organization opposing the local nuke plant. A person from the organization gives a short talk to the semi-their living rooms…Wow, everyone is outside having the same conversation they always have. After about an hour, deliberately not speaking to anyone, the headline band finally gets their shit onstage. It’s the same band that always plays Raleigh. Everyone knows them, who they date, all of the gossip. I even live with one of them. Tonight’s show is supposed to be special, a fundraiser for the loose-knit interested crowd, but I get the feeling that what they really want is to jump off the stage and run into each other to the
beat of their favorite tune. Five minutes late, my suspicions are confirmed as I sit on the stage and dodge leather wrapped feet flying around my head. While viewing the throng from my vantage point, I wonder how many of them actually care about the plant as they run around in a circle to words of cooperation and pollution of the planet. How many more times this be repeated? About seven or ten in the course of a year and a half? No one is making an attempt to discuss this very real issue. The band seems afraid to step out of their dictated role and head this situation into something constructive, but blaming the band is too easy an answer. What should be expected of a band other then playing their own music? I’ve always expected too much from such a show. It could be a way for like-minded people to meet, but to place the value of a political event on a show is going too far. While we are still a crowd listening to a band it will never be anything more than that. A consumption relationship. Maybe it will make people think but probably not because no one really wanted to think. Everybody just wanted to rock. Is that bad?

BRIAN GENTRY: The activist stuff was important to me for several reasons. I had always had the feeling that a lot of things were just wrong in the world and I couldn’t stand to not at least say something about it. What I actually did, well, that is debatable. I really, really enjoyed doing the underground press thing that happened in the eighties, like Factsheet Five and all of the underground culture that was connected to that. And the political stuff too, was hooked into that for me, so that I never had too much of that unbelievably dry regurgitated and unimaginative leftist culture crapola which I was later to see. I think it was neat that my Raleigh political activities were tied into some art and music related stuff. I now think some of it was pretty silly and I was certainly full of shit many times. But that period allowed me to grow and experiment in many ways that not everyone gets to do. We just “did what we want(ed)” and had a very good time doing it. I am still very politically motivated but have only recently returned to the contemplation of political activity in a direct way.

Brian Gentry was also one of the founders of the Beatless, one of the few (if only) continual experimental ensembles that I could remember from back then. They could be a lot of fun & very effective when they were “on”. An interesting group of weirdos.

BRIAN GENTRY: I thought what we did was pretty neat, though we weren’t knocking anybody’s socks off. It had a great do-it-yourself, creative vibe to it. Nobody was really doing anything industrial at the time, and we were using television sets, tape loops, found sounds, and all kinds of goofy props. We certainly came at things from a very different angle, kind of silly and introverted, but still fun. It was definitely in the spirit of punk rock and the creative impulses that were the best part of that whole scene. I had a blast. I am sure that I would think some of the stuff we did was silly and not as interesting and funny as I thought it was at the time, but that wasn’t the point. I think we had an amazing chance to tap into something very vibrant where anything goes but everyone wasn’t trying to be more controversial then everyone else. That just leads to some pretty boring crap. We opened for some great bands: Pussy Galore, the Flaming Lips, White Zombie (well, okay, two great bands). I still love to tell people that we were better received then White Zombie in a little club, way back when.


JEFF JUNG: Oh boy... let's see... Well, I suppose the concept from the beginning was always just experimentation... It first started from boredom, I guess. We were at Fowler house modifying the tape heads of a boombox to turn it into a multi-track recorder. Made a sort of creepy version of "Imagine" by John Lennon. I remember Skip singing(?) into a fish bowl, holding the tape deck real close. I'm not going to begin to try and name everyone in the band, or when they were members... we certainly had a bit of a rotating membership... I think it varied anywhere from 3 to 12 members at any given time.
Our first "show" was at NC State's English Department... Now, I'm still trying to figure this one out, but somehow they were having a little performance art festival or something. I think we heard about it like a week ahead of time, and thought, "well hell.. we can do THAT". Several of us were reading the Illuminatus Trilogy at the time, and there was this concept in the book that every civilization went through 5 phases - chaos, discord, confusion, bureaucracy, and aftermath. We figured a week was more than enough time to come up with something... after all... not much point in actually writing music for the "chaos" portion, you know? "Discord" was just more of the chaos (really just everyone making noise, of course), except 2 of the 8 people on stage were actually playing something "together" (not that anyone could tell). "Confusion" was tough... we were essentially playing two "songs" at the same time, that had absolutely no relation to each other in any regards.... "Bureaucray" was of course everyone playing together, very mechanical and industrial sounding... then "Aftermath" most of the band left, with only I think three of us left, playing something rather sedate and depressing.
The early years were my favorite... we would do shows with literally no planning and no songs whatsoever. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. I think my favorite of all time was one at the Fallout Shelter... some opening band had canceled, and big Karen called us and asked if we'd play. We were told we had half an hour at 10PM. Well, we noticed The Twilight Zone was on at that time, so brought whatever band members we could find, a few instuments, a bunch of TVs, and just showed up. Put up the TVs, turned on the Twilight Zone, and just started playing over it... figured we'd stop when the show was over. Skip, instead of singing, just brought a popcorn popper and made everyone popcorn.
Another favorite moment was while opening for Pussy Galore... Brian and Skip were doing this sort of "call and response" thing, just saying things off the top of their head while the rest of us just banged on stuff... suddenly Brian launches into a several minute diatribe against journalists. Then when it finally became Skip's turn again, he just walked up to the mic and said "Ditto", and that was it. Wish I had that one on tape...
I left BeatlesS when I moved to Philadelphia for a year or so. I wasn't really into the direction things were going... there was a lot less experimentation at that point, I think. Or maybe I was just getting bored. Either way, I disappeared for a while. But then, I think it was within a week of moving back to Raleigh, they were doing The Passion Play thing where you and I destroyed a few drumheads. That was fun, and more like the Beatless I enjoyed being a part of.

THE PARTY IS OVER?

Being creative & continuing to play music was always good enough for me. Being tied down to the rules or regulations of any “scene” was a drag and played no real part in the things I did & continue to do. And plus, all of the ethics of punk rock are all good when you are living with your parents, but some of us didn’t have such luxuries, or money. You learn really fast in a painful way that sometimes you need to move on, grow up and change certain things in your life. That is the way it is, and it is something that I myself am still learning in my own way.

ERROL ENGELBRECHT: I left Raleigh and moved to Atlanta and was there for seven years. I became a tattoo artist. I came back because I got married at the time and it seemed like it was a good place to open up a new business, a place to settle down, better opportunities. In Atlanta, there were too many tattoo studios and there weren’t any good ones here at the time, so it made good sense to do it and as it turned out it worked out. I think it is kind of funny because back in the early eighties I would have been voted the least likely to succeed or amount to anything, that I’d be a house painter for the rest of my life or get hooked on drugs or something like that. Because I lived the punk rock life they all thought that I was going to end up like Sid Vicious. And I did it. It worked out well. Yeah, there is a bit of satisfaction there. I have done better then people that had more chances, and I did it on my own terms and by myself without help from family or having a college degree. You never can tell.

SEAN LIVINGSTONE: I think it’s hard to look back on something like a “music scene” and have either a proud or an embarrassing moment about my involvement My “moments” are just that, mine. I am certainly into the fact that the scene in some ways shaped my life growing up, but I am neither proud nor embarrassed of this. -Holy shit that was such a lame answer.

RICHARD BUTNER: It was wildly important to me.  I think if you don't grow and evolve, well then, you sink to the bottom and die.  But I also think it's very important to remember where you came from, and to try and think critically about the past.  To try and maintain a moral center. I see bands these days, folks who came out of that hardcore scene, and they've got roadies carrying all of their gear.  I guess somewhere along the line their ideals diverged from mine.  If you're making money and need some help setting up your gear, that's one thing.  But if you can't pick up your own guitar case and carry it from the stage to the van, that's really dumb. Somewhere in that brief example lurks the true meaning of this whole punk thing.

SARA BELL: I know it had a big influence on me or I wouldn't still be playing.  There are so many other choices for ways to be living but I've never been able to go in any other direction in my life since then, the constant has always been music and I know that can't be an accident.  For me I was learning so much about how to play with other people, learning to record at home and in a studio and just mixing styles so much. As a band the Angels were unified in our determination not to sound like anything else but there was no rule or goal or sound we were going for, and that's definitely informed everything I've done musically since.  Toward the end we tried to be more structured and it fell apart.  So I guess I do identify with that freedom when it comes to being a musician, it's something I always want to cultivate.

ERROL ENGELBRECHT: I had a lot of fun, got to see a lot of good bands. I did learn a lot about people, though. How people interact with other people, and that scenes suck, no matter what it is. I don’t regret it. I was homeless for two weeks in San Francisco back then, and if I could handle that I could live through anything, you know? Even that COC logo, as much of a pain in the ass as that was and all of the shit I had to go through about it, it’s helped me out in some spots. In San Francisco, this kid had it tattooed on him and I was saying, “Yeah, I did that.” And I was homeless and he said, “well, you can stay with me.” (Laughter) “ I work at a restaurant and I can get you some food.”. So, in some ways it’s actually pulled me out of some spots just by having done that. You know, I was really naïve and I was just really into punk rock. Unfortunately, people in the so-called scene still looked at you and judged you by how you looked instead of taking a little time and effort to get to know you. It was like, “Oh, he looks like one of those English punks so he’s probably an idiot and he drinks beer”, you know, “he’s not cool like us and our cool Redd Kross and Sonic Youth”. Sonic Youth. God, I hate Sonic Youth, you know? To this day I still despise the indie-rock scene and its entire psuedo-intellectual people just trying to show off how intelligent they are. I am not impressed. I did my thing, and I won’t make any apologies for it, and at least I stuck to my guns.

BRIAN GENTRY: When I look back I think that it was a really good time for me. I was doing what I wanted, and had so many creative outlets. I was in a band, I was doing poetry readings, making art, involved in the underground press (THAT scene in Raleigh could be the subject of a book!), doing political stuff, just getting hit from all sides with influences, new ideas and means of expression. It completely changed my life and I will never forget it. When I encounter people my age now, or other people in graduate school, often I find that I have much more experience then they do in life. I have had the chance to do what I really wanted to do, to open myself up and experiment, and most people never get a chance to do that. I think that Raleigh was a big part of that for me. Sure, there were problems, it wasn’t always exciting, and eventually I felt the need to move on to something else, to more in-depth pursuits, but it was a very formative period. I am grateful for the chance to have done it, because now I see how few people have actually done it. It was really only a start but it was a good start and inspired me to do more. I don’t have any desire to go back to some mythical “good ol’ days”, but one reason why I won’t settle for a mediocre life now is because I experienced some great things back then that showed me that you can challenge the assumptions you were raised with.

CHRIS SCHNIEDER: Hardcore was something that came along, and I guess it was inevitable from the music that I was listening to before that I would discover hardcore. So when I moved down here it was a lot different then how things were for me up in New York. I would travel to Connecticut or go down to CBGB’s to see shows, and I would hang out & talk to some people but I really didn’t you know… hang out with anyone on a regular basis. After I moved down here it was sort of like going to high school and having a social group and friends, but not having to go to class-even though I think we all learned a lot. (Laughter) In retrospect I have sort of somewhat moved back towards not hanging out so much and just being into my own thing. I don’t know what that really has to do with hardcore or the scene. I guess it actually has a lot to do with the scene. You can only do one thing for so long, like arguing with all your buddies over what the best Black Sabbath album. I miss some of that.


STEVE AKIN: It was definitely an influence. I still think of myself as punk rock even though I'm not really. I still listen to some of those bands but not as much. I rent or buy DVD's of the Ramones and Clash and Sex Pistols and whatever. I always question and am leary of authority. I wear a studded belt even when I have to wear a suit. I think it was a good thing. But I think I was too obsessed with it and should have cared more about school but I was still able to get an undergrad degree so I wasn't too bad I guess. I just got kinda close minded there for a while and my whole life was punk rock which was a little bit silly. Because certain aspects of it were pretty dumb. But all the reasons I was into it are still somewhat valid to me today. I hate my current president even more than I hated Reagan and in the eighties, I would have told you there is no way I would ever hate anyone more than I hated Reagan.

LEJEUNE: God yes, I am grateful to God that I got to experience the music the people, and everything. Even if it was good or bad I had good friends, and enemies to experience all at once. I love a parade! 

JON WURSTER:    I certainly tried to live by the whole "think for yourself" philosophy that scene tried to inspire.  Funny how a lot of those people all dressed in punk uniforms (strange how most of the bands never did). I think in a weird way it gave me some of that snob mentality that I'm trying to lose. You look at all the pop-punk bands selling tons of records and say, "This stuff sucks; The Descendents and the Zero Boys did it so much better." Y'know, that whole "I was seeing 7 Seconds in a steak sandwich restaurant when you were in knee pants" kinda mentality.

ETHAN SMITH: All of this shit is really cool and I got really good memories of all of this, you know? I have really good memories of Ashe ave. and hanging out over there. I’d get off work and go over there and hang out in Todd’s room, smoke pot and listen to records all night. It was fucking cool. It seems things are a little more divided now and people are a little more solitary or something, you know? But I still see these people, and it is great.

SARA BELL: I always think when I go to see a band now whose fans are mostly younger how I've become like one of those mysterious "old people" lurking in the back of clubs that I used to wonder about when I was that age.  I know that that kind of community always turns hands and continues, even if the circumstances and characters and zeitgeist change.  So I hope that there will be an experience like that for the new kids on the scene.